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  • #47142
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    rambleon
    Participant

    hey annastefka, this has been in the news over here a lot lately + seeing as how you are writing about/interested in parenting issues … what do you make of this ? … or for that matter what does anyone make of this ?

    i’m not a parent + i don’t plan on being one, but i don’t like the idea of violence full stop … am i wrong to think this ? am i being naive b/c i don’t have kids ?

    Quote:
    Hitting children is as unacceptable as hitting anyone else and the law should clearly say so.

    – Alliance spokesperson Sir William Utting

    full smacking ban defeated in the uk

    No 10 rejects smacking ban move

    The new survey is likely to prompt debate

    Downing Street has rejected a complete ban on parents being allowed to smack their children – but a tightening of the law is being considered instead.

    At present parents can use "reasonable chastisement" to discipline children.

    But more than 200 peers and MPs want a total ban added to the Children Bill currently going through Parliament.

    Tony Blair’s official spokesman said the prime minister "does not believe there should be a law banning parents from smacking their children".

    However government sources say they accept some parents are exploiting this defence to justify beatings.

    As a result it appears Labour is prepared to offer its MPs a free vote on the tightening up of "reasonable chastisement".

    The Daily Mail newspaper says the tightening could see parents who use implements to smack their children, or who smack them regularly, at risk of prosecution under the tightened laws.

    Labour MP David Hinchliffe told BBC One’s Politics Show that the law needed updating.

    He said: "In this country at least one child a week dies at the hands of their parents or carers. Currently the law is not helpful to those child protection agencies who have the duty of ensuring children are properly protected from abuse."

    But Theresa May, Tory spokeswoman for the family, said ministers should avoid "trying to tell people how to run their lives".

    "We all know there is a limit beyond which parents should not go and at the point where what is reasonable control actually becomes abuse, that obviously is wrong and government and society has a right to step in at that point."

    Lib Dem spokeswoman Annette Brooke said: "At least 10 other European countries have successfully introduced a ban on smacking children, and Britain should too.

    "Evidence from Sweden and Germany, countries which have introduced a ban, shows that such a rule not only protects children but has also brought about a change in culture towards children."

    The Children are Unbeatable Alliance is calling for a ban. The group’s Sir William Utting said: "Hitting children is as unacceptable as hitting anyone else and the law should clearly say so."

    A survey last month by the alliance suggested 71% of people would support a complete ban.

    About 350 organisations, including NSPCC and Liberty, want to end the defence of "reasonable chastisement".

    The alliance wants the Children Bill to be amended to give youngsters the same protection as adults in the home.

    #103514
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    rambleon
    Participant

    oh, forgot to mention … it’s worth noting many other european countries have already successfully legislated for a complete ban …

    European countries that don’t smack :

    Sweden
    Finland
    Denmark
    Norway
    Austria
    Cyprus
    Croatia
    Latvia

    Tuesday, 18 January, 2000, 18:22 GMT

    Europe turns against smacking

    The UK government has missed an opportunity, say children’s groups, to join a growing number of countries that refuse to allow children to be hit or smacked – even by their parents.

    Instead, the government is considering means to limit in England the circumstances in which parents accused of physical abuse can use in court the 139-year-old defence of "reasonable chastisement".
    In the UK, a child can be hit, thumped or struck if a parent can satisfy a court that his or her act constituted "reasonable chastisement".

    The eight European countries that already expressly forbid any kind of physical assault on a child have done so by affording children the same legal rights as adults.

    And more countries are, in the same way, paving the way for a ban on hitting and smacking to be made law.

    In its defence, the government says that it should not, and does not want to interfere in the private relationship between parents and their children, and that most people know the difference between a "mild rebuke" and assault.

    In 1979, Sweden was the first country in the world to prohibit all corporal punishment of children.

    It added a provision to its Parenthood and Guardianship Code which now reads: "Children are entitled to care, security and a good upbringing.

    "Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment."

    The Children’s Rights Commission which drafted the legislation emphasised: "The primary purpose of the provision is to make it clear that beating children is not permitted.

    Education campaign

    "Secondly, the commission wishes to create a basis for general information and education for parents as to the importance of giving children good care and as to one of the prime requirements of their care."

    Publication of the legislation was followed up with an education campaign lead by the Ministry of Justice, which sent a leaflet to all households with children.

    It read: "The law now forbids all forms of physical punishment of children including smacking, etc, although it goes without saying that you can still snatch a child away from a hot stove or open window if there is a risk of its injuring itself."

    Four years later, Finland comprehensively reformed its children’s law, which included a ban on physical punishment.

    Its Child Custody and Right of Access Act 1983 reads: "A child shall be brought up in the spirit of understanding, security and love.

    "He shall not be subdued, corporally punished or otherwise humiliated. His growth towards independence, responsibility and adulthood shall be encouraged, supported and assisted."

    In May 1987, Denmark amended its Parental Custody and Care Act, so that it read that children "may not be subjected to corporal punishment or other degrading treatment".

    The issue had long been debated in the country, and had been the subject of several national opinion polls prior to the amendment.
    Two years later in 1987, Norway banned smacking with an amendment to its Parent and Child Act.

    It stated: "The child shall not be exposed to physical violence or to treatment which can threaten his physical or mental health."
    The Children’s Ombudsman’s Office in Norway is currently carrying out research to investigate the level of violence against children in the country.

    Austria was next to follow suit, altering its Youth Welfare Act to state that "using violence and inflicting physical or mental suffering is unlawful".

    Other Countries Following

    The Cyprus House of Representatives unanimously voted in legislation to prevent family violence in 1994. It criminalises "the exercise of violence on behalf of any member of the family against another member of the family".

    Latvia outlawed smacking children in June 1998. And Croatia prohibited "corporal punishment and humiliation" in January 1999.
    Italy, Germany, Bulgaria, Belgium and Ireland are all processing legislation to protect children from physical rebuke.

    In the USA and Canada, law on corporal punishment differs from state to state, with some states still allowing caning in schools.
    However, groups including Project NoSpank in the US, and the Natural Child Project in Canada, campaign against it.

    #103515
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    AGAP
    Participant

    I thought this was a smoking ban thread, which I’m definitely for in public spaces :aliensmile:

    Don’t plan on having kids so won’t have to deal with that issue personally, see a lot of the effects of abuse on kids where I work though… :shock:

    I think thats a really hard thing to actually police, legistlation is the easy thing, education is important, this is a good Canadian site

    #103516
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    Robert
    Participant
    "rambleon" wrote:
    but i don’t like the idea of violence full stop

    You don’t like the idea of a law that bans violence against children :?:

    #103517
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    rambleon
    Participant

    no !!! what i meant was i don’t like the idea of violence (as in hitting children) !! :shock:

    i guess the question is, does a smack for chastisement constitute abuse + also, is it really necessary ?? it seems like there’s many other ways of disciplining your children other than smacking, hitting whatever word you want to use for it … i don’t plan on being a parent ever, so i don’t know 1st hand how effective other methods of child discipline are … i guess i just wanted to know what other people thought about this sensitive issue … + it seems like the UK isn’t the only place where it is a big deal …

    #103518
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    Annastefka
    Participant

    I should be cleaning my car, I am using computer as Ultimate escapism, I just today found this, to chime in, I think that if we hit children we they have upset us , it teaches children to hit when they are angry. Maria Montessori has many ideas when it comes to disipline and punishment for improper behavior. Children learn to handle frustration if they see us handling such. I have become angry with my children and I have raised my voice, which by the way, can be fairly upsetting. My husband was raised with 4 other boys and says that his parents did not talk things over with them, they just smacked the crap out of them. He is a very loving man and very close to his Mother. I think the biggest problem , the thing that breaks my heart, is to see children with very ignorant parents, in the south we see that often. Perhaps the rest of the world does also. I try to bring myself back to a wonderful piece of Proverbs that says if "You put Love first in everything you do the right way to act will always be shown to you" this has always worked for me with my husband and children. Okay, time to clean the car.

    #103519
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    malcom
    Participant

    I work around kids all day, and I have to say that I don’t like this bill. The youngest kids (2) and such don’t have the langauge skills to be talked out of something, and they don’t have any sense of time, you can’t threaten them.

    I’m not saying "just beat the shit out of them," but a ‘smack’ (local law says you can’t leave a mark, which is reasonable) has been used for millenea, maybe for a reason.

    I wish I wasn’t trying to post this at 12:30, but it’s the skeleton of my opinion.

    #103520
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    AGAP
    Participant

    Two year olds understand time outs, understand losing their favorite toys, understand losing special outings, if done at the time of the behavioral problem. The deal is consistency, set age appropriate limits with clearly defined consequences to behavior & follow thru each time. Kids will learn, always after a time out review with the child reasons for the time out & expectations of behavior…consistency is very important.

    That whole don’t leave a mark thing is scary to me, how bout the biblical thing thats been around for millenea…spare the rod spoil the child… :roll:
    Just because somethings been around for awhile doesn’t make it right.

    I understand how overwhelming it can be parenting toddlers & challenging infants. I really do hope that communities do their part in teaching parents different methods to deal with those behaviors versus the alternative of sticking to what doesn’t work…ie hitting but not leaving a mark.

    I work with kids who have been abused, sometimes the abuse started out as a disciplinary action…simple smacks to start, when that didn’t work… full out assaults.

    #103521
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    malcom
    Participant
    Quote:
    Two year olds understand time outs, understand losing their favorite toys, understand losing special outings, if done at the time of the behavioral problem.

    The parents I see at the library are the types who are ‘good mommies.’ The type who get into long conversations with each other about musical kindergarten and french lessons and whatever else makes them better parents than whomever they’re talking to.

    These parents usually don’t strike their kids, instead preferring ‘time outs’ and such. The problem is they try to threaten these kids. "If you don’t stop running, you’ll have a time out when you get home." IT DOESN’T WORK.

    If the kid actually is given a time out, he just cries and raucauses until he’s out. Or just ignores it and struggles free.

    #103522
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    Rich
    Participant

    violence, should not be tolerated at all no matter what teh cicumstance

    #103523
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    AGAP
    Participant
    "malcom ramone" wrote:
    Quote:
    Two year olds understand time outs, understand losing their favorite toys, understand losing special outings, if done at the time of the behavioral problem.

    The parents I see at the library are the types who are ‘good mommies.’ The type who get into long conversations with each other about musical kindergarten and french lessons and whatever else makes them better parents than whomever they’re talking to.

    These parents usually don’t strike their kids, instead preferring ‘time outs’ and such. The problem is they try to threaten these kids. "If you don’t stop running, you’ll have a time out when you get home." IT DOESN’T WORK.

    If the kid actually is given a time out, he just cries and raucauses until he’s out. Or just ignores it and struggles free.

    You can’t threaten two year olds, the action needs to be taken at the time of the behavioral problem or its useless. If the kid doesn’t respect the limit, causes a rucus, struggles free, next step would be to make him sit in the car/mini van for the duration of the time out, that doesn’t work time to leave. Consequences need to be clearly outlined at each step, follow thru on the parents part is essential or like I said the kids realize you don’t really mean it & increased oppositional behavior is pretty much a done deal.

    You could always leave a list of these books on their table, they might find them interesting, or you’ll offend them enough they won’t come back :lol: :wink: 8)

    #103524
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    Annastefka
    Participant
    "Coma Girl" wrote:
    .

    how bout the biblical thing thats been around for millenea…spare the rod spoil the child… :roll:
    Just because somethings been around for awhile doesn’t make it right.
    .

    I had to say something that will sound funny, :lol: , the whole spare the rod spoil the child thing does work, really well, only the concept has been perverted by man (ie all of us) This is very important and Jesus spoke of it often, how greed, lust, envy, ummm our unelightened human nature will always rule over (and destroy) us if we don’t stay in contact with the spiritual. Even as y’all know, Christianity has been perverted by the people, from a very beautiful,peaceful, graceful way of living, perverted by people who were reading the words but not following the walk. SPARE THE ROD, for instance, a good sheperd NEVER (NEVER,NEVER) , hit his sheep, he used the rod to protect the sheep, to keep the sheep out of danger, from walking off a cliff, or to pull that sheep closer to him esp. the young ones who were not as wise and tended to stray. SPOIL THE CHILD, to spoil means to make rotten, rotten is no good, you have to throw it away, it has no use what so ever. The whole idea behind this saying was if you do not give guidance to a child, you are going to end up with (a piece of crap ) something that needs to put in the garbage can or (compost bin because God always gives us another chance to do something really good) it had no connection to hitting, un enlightened humans took this beautiful concept and turned it into something ugly. Now, we have many children,well, for instance, I have a few brother in-laws, whose idea of a great life is to have both parents working when the children come home from school (one for instance lives in a $450,000 Mc mansion, as we like to call them and still sends his children to public school (to save money) This is Georgia, we have the WORST, school system in America, and this is not my opinion, this is statistical FACT. This is not Canada, or Vermont, or even Ohio. When his 2 children come home from (Georgia public) school they sit and watch Jerry springer on television, or go to their room and check out pornography on the web. They are getting no spiritual training, and our soul (spirit) needs to be used as much as our mind. They are making c’s and D’sin school, I mean WTF, so they have a lot of money, they can give each kid his own computer in his room. All of the school shootings, if you look into the families you see none of these kids had GUIDANCE from the very beginning! You can’t take a 13 year old and say, gee it is time we started getting close, that has to be done at birth, with breastfeeding, and holding and kissing and singing to, and praying with when they are scared, and at Christmas time, teach them that we have children out in the world who get no presents, ask if we can take one present from their wish list and give it to a child in need, we have done this every year, and it is one of my childrens favorite holiday traditions, this brings lasting joy to them, a toy may break after a few weeks, or you tire of it, but you never lose the happiness you feel in your heart when you have helped someone to be happy. How many parents are enhancing the character developement of their children? Not enough!!!!! So, it is true if you spare the rod (guidance), you spoil the child. I am sure most of you also thought this saying had to do with hitting, but I am lucky we have a large group of Gnostic Christians, and Gnostic Catholics in Athens who have seen through the smoke and dust created by humans. On an wild note we are leaving to go to White Water, we did the water park thing for the first time a few years ago, and it is way to much fun.

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