February 2, 2001 at 6:38 am #44018
Hey there all,
Just wondering if anyone can tell me why I have never met a(nother) female Dinosaur Jr fan…Throughout my walks of life, the Mascis fans I’ve met have been exclusively male. Like whenever anyone comments on a Dino shirt I’m wearing, it’s a guy…any discussions about guitar & the like, only guys have known who the hell he is. Occasionally I’ll meet a woman who gives me a halfhearted "I think I’ve heard of him" but no hardcore chick fans!
At shows it’s seemed that we are outnumbered 10 to 1, not that it’s a bad thing, but just interesting…Also the only girls who seem to post here regularly are me & bates & dfk…
I know it’s probably a silly topic but does anyone have any brilliant suggestions?? Be interested, if not mildly scared, to hear them-
Rosa "Ms. Mascis if you’re nasty"
February 2, 2001 at 11:05 am #60665
I don’t think it’s a silly topic and I have often pondered this one myself. My best friend is a Dino fan (though not to the extent I am). She is also a big music fan in general, which I think has something to do with it.
I don’t know that many girls that are really into music to the extent my friend and I are. I know other girls that regularly attend shows and buy CDs, but their priorities are definitely elsewhere and in general they usually don’t have broad music interests. I think you have a be a real music fan in general to fully appreciate J’s music.
I love music and could not live without it. I like it all, my music collection is quite varied. I relate many of my most important life experiences to particular songs. A lot of my best memories are road trips to see bands or attend other music related events. I get really excited if I hear a band I haven’t neard before and really like them.
Most girls I know are more into the nuturing experience (making a home, finding a man, having a child, etc.). Maybe a lot of it is stereotypes and how girls are brought up. A lot of folks assume you are a groupie if you are girl that is into music – at least that has been my experience. Whatever. The girls I know who are really into music are independent and not stereotypical homebodies.
Just my opinion.
p.s. I’m really glad you and Bates do post. Freakscene is my first J experience where there have actually been other dedicated female J fans.
February 2, 2001 at 11:17 am #60666
funny you should mention this. WerenÂ´t you the one who remarked on this scene from The Year That Punk Broke. When Thurston was asking those kids: Is J. Mascis your boyfriend? Now what is so incredibly funny about this? That no one fancies J. No teenie boppers that is. He is simply not as cute as Kurt.
Then this guitar doodling is definitley a male thing or how many girls do you know who like to play the air guitar (donÂ´t forget to switch hands during Nirvana).
Third, if you have read High Fidelity by Nick Hornby (as IÂ´m sure you did) you will know, that its by and large men who like to define themselfes through music, i.e. their refinded taste in it. And therefore itÂ´s almost always men who feel compelled to waste their time on message boards of their respective favourites or walk around as a free advertising board for their band. While all the other girls are running naked through the cornfields right now, living life to the extreme, us dinosaur addicts prefer to discuss our favourite solo from J. on this very board. Now, if you could choose, you would get a life, wouldnÂ´t you?
And since we already namechecked Nick Hornby, I think itÂ´s time for some High Fidelity-style hitlists.Starting with something fairly easy.
Favourite five songs with peoples names as title.
1) thÂ´ faith healers: Kevin
2) Jon Spencer Blues Explosion: Brenda
3) Talulah Gosh: Talulah Gosh
4) Nirvana: Polly (New Wave Version)
Favourite five songs with places as title
1) Boss Hog: Texas
2) Wedding Present: Montreal
3) That Dog.: Mineapolis
4) Walter Wanderley: Brazil
5) Cinerama: Manhattan
Now, which ones are yours?
if you don’t find what you are looking for, ask for itFebruary 2, 2001 at 4:43 pm #60667
Definitely not a silly topic, like DFK I have thought about this one for some time. A lot of my female friends were at one point very much into the whole music scene thing, buying, watching, playing, debating who did what better and 1st….it was great. None to the degree that I was but still it was nice to have the female perspective. Over time this has changed though, like DFK pointed out other parts of their life took priority….in my experience it has always been related to them starting a family. The focus changed to the nuturing/nest building role, understandable to a degree but I definitely miss their input on music and shows. Don’t get me wrong I respect their choices and dedication but just not the choice I could or would make. I love kids…other peoples where we get to leave and return to the lifestyle we have chosen. Just don’t want the responsibility and am definitely not willing to sacrifice any part of my life,I just enjoy it too much.
Like DFK music plays a huge part of my life, it has definitely been a good thing!!! It sounds like we have similar feelings regarding the role music plays in our life.
Nothing better than hitting the road to see a band, not just to see someone whose music is amazing but to hit all the record stores and stock up on stuff….its great. Just want to make clear that while music plays a huge part in my life I do have a life…..career, continuing education, other interests like NFL, film/animation, my crazy cat and great husband just to name a few. Given the choice of running thru a field butt naked and going to a hot, crowded, noisy club to hear some great tunes my choice would definitely be the club but hey why can’t we do both?
Not sure what the deal is with this, some of the woman I know who have started families and retreated from the music scene are very independent strong minded people just have chosen a different path. I agree that some of it may be related to the stereotypical expectations/pressures on females but don’t know if thats the complete answer, all I know is I Never Bought It. A lot of my male friends who are fanatics in their own way regarding music do not define themselves by their musical tastes, it may be a large part of who they are but just a part not the whole….none of them do the air guitar thing either.
The one thing that definitely gets me is the same thing DFK mentioned….the groupie thing…..bite me comes to mind!!!!! Says a lot more about the mentality of the person judging female music fans than anything else but god it pisses me off. Next time you guys come across that situation, think of me and imagine joining hands and running at the guy,knocking him off his feet with a wicked double clothsline move….see him flipping over onto his back with his beverage smacking him on the head and everybody having a huge laugh at his expense…works for me, makes me laugh every time. Have learned thru experience there is no use trying to explain things to the cretinous humanoids that express that ridiculous idea, a lot more fun to play the above cartoon in my head…but hey thats just me.
Really nice to get the female perspective from some J Mascis fans definitely. I guess the only good thing about the 10:1 male/female ratio at gigs is the no line in the bathroom thing….only my opinion though.
February 2, 2001 at 11:41 pm #60668
Before we start making lists in the style of "High Fidelity", I think there’s more to say on the original topic. It seems to me that this male/female issue, even if a large part of it can be explained by general differences in the way we listen to music, goes to the heart of what J’s music is about.
The first point I’d like to make is about the world J sketches in his songs. In his world, the speaker – a man – is alone, and almost always because he is left alone by a girl. ("You’ve got things to do / So what else is new / Won’t you give me some") There are a few exceptions to this rule ("Flying Cloud"), but not many. So there is a quite sharp distinction between male and female in J’s songs. Men are always associated with loneliness, unhappiness, insecurity – and the only thing that can save us from this terrible fate is the love of a girl. ("Come on, babe, come on rescue me!") But although the speaker in J’s songs is tired to death of being alone, he’s too scared to really do anything about it. ("You won’t catch me deep in the water / however much I wanna play with you") Women are strong, men are weak.
There also, though it’s not very strong, seems to be some anger and frustration with women in most of J’s songs. The speaker accuses them of not caring enough, of leaving him alone. ("You’re living all over me") Again, men are weak and for their happiness dependent on women. Whether this is a realistic view of the world is not the point; it’s J’s world.
I can think of different reasons why this view of the world attracts more guys than girls. First, it might be harder for girls to connect with these (typically male?) feelings, and the melancholic attitude of being isolated and lacking the courage to break out of your isolation. I’m not saying that there are no girls intimately familiar with these feelings, but maybe it’s easier for guys – in general – to relate to what J is singing about. Especially because you can’t just ignore the sharp distinction between male and female in J’s work – the work is telling you that boys are the lonely one’s, and girls are what they long for, and what makes them lonely. So when you’re a female-listener, should you try to relate to the speaker’s feelings of intense loneliness, or should you dream of being the one to rescue him from that loneliness?
Another, and I admit dubious, suggestion is that there are more lonely boys than lonely girls in this world. Maybe more girls are, as Dimpf so eloquently put it, running naked through cornfields, while more guys are at home, alone and frustrated, recognizing what J is singing about. Maybe there’s some truth in J’s view of the world.
The arguments I’ve been making, of course, rest on a certain reading of J’s work. I think it’s evident that the theme of loneliness and insecurity is dominant on all of J’s albums, and I therefore expect his fans to be people who recognize this, and can identify with these feelings. Against this background, my arguments about the male/female issue should be understood.
Alright, thanks for reading all of this… [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
"I got by
then I grew."
– J MascisFebruary 3, 2001 at 2:58 am #60669
Top 5 names as songtitles:
1.My Name Is Jonas -Weezer
3.Jennifer and The Ess-Dog -Stephen Malkmus
4.Smith and Jones Forever -Silver Jews
5.Jed The Humanoid -Grandaddy
Top 5 places:
1.Barcelona -The Rentals
2.Kentucky Cocktail -Pavement
3.Stockholm Syndrome -Yo La Tengo
4.Deutschland -Atari Teenage Riot
5.Alabama -Neil Young
Well..guess I cheated couple o’ times, naming songs where the name or place weren’t the only word in the title…
"Don’t let it bring you down, it’s only castles burning. Just find someone who’s turning. And you will come around."
-Neil YoungFebruary 3, 2001 at 8:13 am #60670
Okay Dimpf, a few points:
1- J is indeed much cuter than Kurt. Never was into blondes.
2- If you don’t think "girls" like to play air guitar- baby, you should see me on my days off when I have the house to myself. When I can’t actually figure out how to play it on my Gibson I generally will say "fuck it" and rip it up on my imaginary Strat.
3- disagree that it is "by and large men who like to define themselves through music". I work in a record store where the women are just as passionate about and empowered and comforted by music as the men. Also important to mention is that of all my friends, male and female, share a common awe & interest in the tunes that influence us so dearly.
4- the naked through a cornfield thing is just too much; I don’t know if I should laugh or take offense but I find myself doing both.
Okay, to Jasper:
I understand what you are saying about a lonely man commenting on a lonely world. But what I feel I must point out is that, as a young Dino fan listening to Dino in high school, what always comforted me first was the music, then the lyrics. And the music is really sexless when you think about it. I have heard J reiterate time and again that when he writes songs the words are secondary. And when you get right down to the lyrics they are not boy/girl stories they are human/human stories. So in that sense I have never even considered that I would be a "female" trying "to relate to the speaker’s feelings", much less a female trying to "rescue him" from those feelings. Basically, when I listen to J, I am not acutely aware of "being a female", so to speak, as I am when I hear, like, Christina Aguilera singing "What a Girl Wants" and staking an obvious gender-specific, sex-specific claim.
But now it’s late and I am babbling. But ultimately, I don’t think guys have exclusive rights to heartache or loneliness or confusion. In fact, I don’t even really think those feelings take precedence in J’s music; his music has always made me feel better, not worse. I think that a large part of the beauty of his songs is the element of strength and survival and even sarcasm & wit. I mean really, who else can make a guitar sound sarcastic like Mascis?
February 4, 2001 at 12:11 am #60671
I think it may be indicative of a bigger problem… I believe that a lot of people have simply forgotten about Dinosaur Jr. I know several women who, upon seeing me in my Dino shirt or hearing Dino in my car, were all "Oh, I haven’t heard of them in years."
It goes for guys as well. A friend of mine who I know from work heard me listening to Dino at my desk. He, like many people I know had a copy of "Where You Been" from the brief moment that J was in the spotlight after that album’s release. I made him a mix CD of stuff from the other albums and now he’s into J’s stuff again. In fact, he went out and bought "More Light" the day it came out and kept listening to it over and over again, telling me how awsome it is.
Bottom line… I think we need to remind our friends that there is good music out there. I think a lot of people are getting buried under all of this manufactured BS music coming out of MTV and the likes. We need to be there to pull them out! [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
PS: …and if one more girl tells me "I’d like to learn to play the guitar, but I’m just no good at music…" I’m gonna lose my mind. It’s called practice people!
"If you can’t pay money… At least pay attention!" – My DadFebruary 4, 2001 at 3:38 am #60672
5 fav songs with peoples names as title
1 Brenda… Captain Sensible
2 Johanna Iggy & James Williamson…Stooges version II
4 Ballad of Dwight Frye…Alice Cooper
5 Erica Kane…..Urge Overkill
5 fav songs with places as title
1 Detroit Rock City…Kiss
2 Sister Havana…Urge Overkill
3 I wanna go to New York City…Demics
4 Still in Hollywood…Concrete Blonde
5 Back In The USA…MC5
Jasper, Rosa & Mattman you all made some great points but I will have to get back to them later…..having difficulty typing…could be the tanqueray.
Mattman I never let not knowing everything about guitar stop me!!!
February 4, 2001 at 3:43 am #60673
Although there are of course many counter-examples, like yourself, I think that Dimpf is right that – in general – for more guys music is a big part of their world, or even something to define themselves through. I see far more guys than girls in every record store I’ve been to.
It’s true that J doesn’t regard his lyrics as the most important element of his songs, but it’s significant that they continually keep discussing the same theme, and I think that his lyrics reflect the theme of his music in general. Furthermore, I don’t think that music is sexless. I think that J’s view on men and women is an integral part of his songwriting, and therefore this view is also part of his music. And although I can sympathize with your point that the lyrics are human/human stories, I think that’s only partly true. I do think that it’s significant that the ‘I’ in his songs is male, and the ‘you’ female. And I do think that, because J is a man, he expresses certain emotions in a certain way. That is, however, in no way to say that guys would have exclusive rights to these emotions.
And that you’re not "acutely aware of being a female" when listening to J’s music, does not mean that for others their gender may matter for how they experience music. After all, "your’s ain’t the only way to feel", as J once told a girl… [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Just like you said, J’s music makes me feel better, not worse. But I don’t think that this – for me, at least – is connected with the strength and survival in his songs. What J is doing is not surviving, it’s hanging on because – well, what else can you do? ("But it’s so hard, just hangin’ on!" Not his own words, I know, but still.) And as for the sarcasm and wit: I do think that’s a part of J’s personality, and it’s clearly there in interviews, but I don’t think it can be found in many of his songs. In "Yeah, right" probably, but I can’t think of many others. And I’m convinced that his guitar sounds mainly melancholic, and not sarcastic, but it would be hard to come up with any arguments on such a point.
So why does J’s music make us feel better? It would take hours to explain what I think properly, but basically I follow Schopenhauer’s aesthetics. (I recommend his "The world as will and representation" to anyone interested in philosophy; it’s one of the best books ever written on a number of important philosphical issues.) Art comforts us because it show us the essence of the world, and in this it reliefs us from our individual suffering. That doesn’t make much sense if you haven’t read Schopenhauer, I realize that, but I don’t feel like writing a complete essay on Saturday night. I probably will write that essay someday, though, so I’ll let you know when it’s done… [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
"It was never my intention,
to blindly feed the boy/girl game.
I know romance isn’t everything,
but I’m obsessing just the same."
– Lou BarlowFebruary 4, 2001 at 4:25 am #60674
I just can’t help myself I have another list
5 songs with names as titles
2…Jimmys Fantasy…Red Kross
3…Aloha Steve & Dano…Radio Birdman
4…Manny Moe & Jack…The Dickies
5…Kims Watermelon Gun…The Flaming Lips
5 songs with places in the name
1…The Chicago Bears Fight Song….god knows who does this but its great
2…Stukas over Disneyland…The Dickies
3…She Creatures of the Hollywood Hills…Iggy and the Stooges…version II
5…New York…Sex Pistols
My motor skills are fading…..ahhh
February 4, 2001 at 10:07 am #60675
you might be the Queen of the air guitar, but itÂ´s a fact, that this endless doodling is generaly favoured by males.
2) To pick someone at random, Kurts, Evan Dandos or Morriseys (donÂ´t check that spelling) songs also deal with being lonely, feeling depressed, ect and yet you had a rather large female percentage at their gigs. In the case of Modest Mouse you still have. And you can quote Schoppenhauer till the end of time, but music is such an emotional form of art, therefore itÂ´s not so important if you can relate to the lyrics, but if you find the voice atractive. My sister -for instance- refuses to listen to bands with female singers, cause music for her has a strong sexual undercurrent. Thus she was quite shocked to dicover that Frank Black was such an ugly fat bastard. Well, I know, youÂ´re above this kind of thing, but I think itÂ´s rather obvious that the appeal of Nirvana, Lemonheads, the Smiths ect had something to do with the appearance and image of the singer.
As for the cornfield bit; that wasnÂ´t meant to be taken quite so serious, but I worked long enough at NBC Giga (German Internet chanel) to know that most of the users are nerdy males. I know itÂ´s a clishÃ©e, but why is it a clishÃ©e? Because itÂ´s true.
As much as the fact that girls generally donÂ´t like to go recordshopping as much as guys do. IÂ´m speaking from personal experience here; had some serious rows because of that. This is not to be confused with the age issue that Bates talked about. Frankly, when I was younger, I fell for every crap little indie band that could hold their guitars the right way round(and some who couldnÂ´t) and they became my favourite band of all time (usually for a week), whereas now it takes a bit more to exite me. All part of growing up I suppose. And yes, since I got my teeth minced while stagediving to Silverfish, I mellowed down a bit.
But hey, you can have it all; running naked through fields while watching exciting bands, but you have to go to Glastonbury for that.
Now something really tricky.
favourite five songs that mention parts of the body in the title.
1) Velevet Underground: Pale blue eyes
2) Cinerama: Ears
3) thÂ´ faith healers: curly lips
4) Dinosaur Jr.: Thumb
5) my bloody valentine: Sylvies Head
Well, that was the first thing that came to mind where I could include a Dino song.
if you don’t find what you are looking for, ask for it
<FONT>This message has been edited by dimpfelmoser on February 05, 2001 at 03:47 AM</font>February 5, 2001 at 11:48 pm #60676
For alot of people J’s music is an acquired taste. Some people can’t deal with his voice on their initial listen and others the "wall of sound" emanating from the speakers. I know several people who have become Mascis fans only because of my relentless bombardment of dino and they are now are actually obsessed with his music. So I don’t think it’s really a boy-girl issue. People have been taught that this is singing and this is music. They are conditioned to react to music in a particular way, according to social upbringing and cultural backgrounds. Hopefully, more people will turn on to Dino "Fog" and J will get the respect and critical claim he deserves.
February 6, 2001 at 5:06 pm #60677
Threatened by the old adage, leave well enough alone, I viewed all the posts starting with Rosa’s and then left, however I quickly returned overwhelmed with desire to place my two cents on the table.
Firstly, the topic itself is extremely intriguing. It’s clear that there are very few hardcore dino fans that are chicks, however, as you’ve all related, the reasons for this are a little hazy to be sure. The philosophical angles are all very interesting, particularly the interperatation of J’s lyrics ‘a man standing alone yearning for a girl to save him’. Like I say, really interesting angles and I don’t mean to take anything away from them but I think it’s a little less complicated, a little less philosophical. I think one thing that most of us hesitate to admit is that the very hungry monster that is pop music is taking over and eating everything in sight. It’s like "the nothing" in the never ending story. Everything from the backstreet boys and britney spears, to limp bizkit and korn. I dont want to knock these people because I think all music is expressionism and no doubt, by and large, these people are just trying to express themselves. The point is, music is becoming something increasingly commercial, sadly people cant help but get sucked in by this. Good looking lead singers, super tight beats, a hundred thousand dollar video this is what people are attracted to, and I dont think they can help it. The reality is there is one way to increase the number of female dino J fans. If j cut his hair, bought some leather pants, got a drum machine, and did the vida loca. I don’t think any of us would want that to happen. So rather than quest for a greater volume in chick fans, lets celebrate the ones we already have. The cliche, its quality not quantity that counts most, comes to mind.
February 6, 2001 at 5:40 pm #60678
Well I gotta say that the answer to this topic is very simple………do yous want to know the answer[img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/confused.gif[/img]………well here it is:Most girls just have bad taste!Plain and simple[img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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