J and Lou

[OriginalPosterLost]

I already posted the following once to the old messageboard, but (with my apologies to those who have grown tired of the old J vs. Lou discussion; but then – the message board wouldn’t be complete without it) I’d like to bring the issue up again. I wrote this in reply to a discussion that basically consisted of "J and Lou should come back together" vs. "Lou/Sebadoh are overrated". Maybe you completely disagree with me – that would be cool – but either way I’d like to hear what other people think.

In my opinion it’s no so much Lou Barlow or Sebadoh who are overrated (though maybe they are), but – and this is, I think, either way the main issue for a Dinosaur Jr. board – the cooperation between J and Lou seems to be severly overrated by some fans.
Sure, "You’re living all over me" is a brilliant album, but what makes it brilliant is not that J and Lou worked together on it. What makes it so good is that J wrote seven brilliant songs, and Lou wrote two great ones.
As for "Dinosaur", it seems to me that the songs that still stand out after all these years as Dino-classics (The Leper, Repulsion, Severed Lips, Quest), are songs mainly written by J – their greatness is not due to the cooperation between J and Lou, but to J’s talent.

I think that what we need to keep in mind is that J really is a loner. It’s not that Lou is not a great songwriter (because of course he is, although I think most of us would agree that he isn’t as consistently good as J), but the combination J and Lou was never the point of Dinosaur Jr. – it was never their cooperation that made the band so good. What made, and makes, it so good is essentially J’s talent as a songwriter and performer, and therefore it’s nonsense to dream about J and Lou getting back together. Instead, we should all be glad that J’s solo-album is coming soon, because we can be sure that it will be good.

Jasper

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"The chief problem about death, incidentally, is the fear that there may be no afterlife – a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. Also, there is the fear that there is an afterlife but no one will know where it’s being held."

– Woody Allen

[This message has been edited by jasper (edited September 21, 2000).]

[OriginalPosterLost]

I think that J and Lou have no business playing together. But the idea of J haveing a permenant band again would be great.

Lou sucks but… it’s REAL COOL the way he sucks (I don’t want to try to explain that but it’s true….) I got "the Sebadoh" album. I like a couple of the songs on it. ("Flame", "Tree") But I used to have one of Lou’s home made tapes. I liked that better. It TOTALLY SUCKED but it was better. I think Lou should have never entered a recording studio (except with Dino Jr.) I think He should have just stuck with his D.I.Y. condenser mike tape recorder sillyness. There was a spiritual quality in that tape that is also in many of the songs that J wrote.

But some times J’s personality comes across so strong that I just want to JUMP OFF A CLIFF or some thing!!! On two occasions I have had to trash all my Dino Jr recordings because they were edging me toward suicide. Not really but the feeling was getting over powering. There is something Intensely depressing about J.

I think some body LIKE Lou and Pat Murphy in J’s creative process would make things a little less intense. Also somebody who REALLY can SCREAM! J should have a steady band so he can write parts for particular players who are part of his world and live in the northeast (or Amherst Mass. even… )

Maybe all of the Dino Jr records were basically solo projects but the early stuff had better songs. I think it was because J was writing songs for his band to play rather than just what he wanted to hear.

[OriginalPosterLost]

I have to say that I have no knowledge of even a single song by Sebadoh. I started getting into Dino in the early 90’s, and the stuff I love most (although I do have and enjoy all the early stuff too) is everything after Lou left. I saw Lou hosting 120 minutes one night and I laughed hysterically when he played an early Dino video (Little Fury Things) and then referred to J’s new stuff as "Dino-Bore Jr." What a sour-grape sucking loser. J’s newer stuff (well, Bug and later) is the stuff J makes that he would want to listen to, and by a miraculous coincidence, it happens to be exactly what I want to hear. I always think of it as music I would like to have written, had I the talent and creativity. I respect an artist with the integrity to play exactly what he or she wants, even though they may have the know-how and ability to create super-polished, radio-friendly money-makers. Sorry for all the hyphenations.

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Chris http://www.jamalong.com

[OriginalPosterLost]

Yeah, I think I know what you mean, about the way Lou sucks in a really cool way, but I think that is mainly on his "Sentridoh" stuff. I don’t think that’s all there is to Lou. The songs he wrote for Sebadoh’s "Harmacy" are excellent. Beautiful melodies, great lyrics, excellent singing – he really is a great songwriter, and not just for stuff "recorded by Lou & Lou alone on two crappy taperecorders".

I agree with you about the intensity of J’s music. But although, or probably because, there is an intense loneliness and melancholy in most of J’s songs, they can be extremely comforting.

In my opinion "Where you been" has the best songs – for me, that’s the album where everything that makes J Mascis so great falls exactly in its right place.

Jasper

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"The chief problem about death, incidentally, is the fear that there may be no afterlife – a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. Also, there is the fear that there is an afterlife but no one will know where it’s being held."

– Woody Allen

[This message has been edited by jasper (edited September 27, 2000).]

[OriginalPosterLost]

Mike Johnson played bass on one of the DinoJr. disks, didn’t he?? His solo effort, Monday Something….or Something Monday….was very good. I like spinning it on rainy days. Living in Oklahoma…that means I haven’t heard it all summer.

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[OriginalPosterLost]

Your question strikes me a funny, but only because had it not been for Dino, I wouldn’t know who the heck Mike Johnson is. Of course, that’s just me! I have intended on checking out his solo efforts but have never gotten around to it.
Mike played on four Dino albums that I am aware of: Whatever’s Cool With Me, Where You Been, Without A Sound, and Hand It Over. [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

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Chris http://www.jamalong.com

[OriginalPosterLost]

The following is from an article on the NME website (http://www.nme.com/newsdesk/19990120133903news.html”>http://www.nme.com/newsdesk/19990120133903news.html)- a short interview with Lou where he talks about once wanting to take revenge on J. What the hell’s he talking about? What happened between them?

What song describes you best?
"’How Does It Feel To Feel’ by The Creation."

What is heaven?
"Having three cats asleep on my chest."

What is hell?
"My cats being hit by a car. No, my house collapsing on top of me and the cats during an earthquake in LA. And the cats eating me."

What’s your earliest memory?
"Pounding on the screen door, screaming because my mother was leaving me with a babysitter. I was a mama’s boy."

Who is your all-time hero?
"Lemmy. Because he can take so much speed and still be so much cooler than Lou Reed."

What’s the worst trouble you’ve been in?
"I never really get into trouble. I always just get real close, like with the police searching the van when we have contraband, and it never really happens."

Who was the first love of your life?
"Heather Love, in first grade."

What’s your greatest talent?
"Having patience with myself."

Upon whom would you most like to exact revenge? Why? How?
"I don’t really have anyone now. I did, a long time ago, dearly want to get revenge on J Mascis. But that was a lot of wasted mental energy."

What’s your most treasured possession?
"Probably my Korg bass synth. It’s between that and my Casio guitar. They cost a hundred bucks a piece, and they’re getting harder to find."

What have you most regretted doing while drunk?
"Continuing to drink."

Can you cook?
"I can make egg sandwiches, that’s it."

What’s the best advice you’ve received?
"Always follow at three car lengths."

Can you read music?
"No."

If you were invisible for a day, what would you do?
"I’d probably follow random people around and find out what they do. I just find the minute details of people’s lives fascinating. I’m a bit of a voyeur."

What are your final three wishes?
"For people to listen to my music, for the screws on the bridge of my guitar to stay in for another show and never to get a flat tyre on an off-ramp."

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Chris

"People want to know why…I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them I have the heart of a small boy — and I keep it in a jar on my desk." <-Stephen King

[OriginalPosterLost]

Hager wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hager:
The following is from an article on the NME website (http://www.nme.com/newsdesk/19990120133903news.html&#8221;>http://www.nme.com/newsdesk/19990120133903news.html)- a short interview with Lou where he talks about once wanting to take revenge on J. What the hell’s he talking about? What happened between them?

<snip>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wrote:
i think Lou was pretty mad the way J gave him the boot. i can’t blame him too much, Lou seems like a pretty sensitive guy and was ousted from a band he was an integral part of (i might get flack for that). he worked just as hard as j and murph to get to the point of moderate success and was kicked out. it was probably for the best, they are both great songwriters and needed their own bands. i like Sebadoh lots. Bakesale is awesome! and i really think Lou added something special to DinoJr when playing bass, it made J sound even better.

Keith
Lou supporter

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[OriginalPosterLost]

Thanks for the info. I guess I’d like to know the gory details of the ousting, maybe read up on both sides of the story…not that it matters much now. Indeed I have wanted to check out Sebadoh for a long time anyway (you may not beleive this but I’ve never heard a single Sebadoh tune!) and I always thought that Poledo was a really cool lo-fi tune.

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Chris

"People want to know why…I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them I have the heart of a small boy — and I keep it in a jar on my desk." <-Stephen King

[OriginalPosterLost]

Ahhh…the long-standing J vs. Lou debate. In my humble opinion, both are immensely talented musicians and songwriters…with very drastically different visions. It’s really amazing to think that so much talent was packed into a power trio. Reminds me quite a bit of the Uncle Tupelo situation. Two great songwriters struggling, competing even, against each other to fulfill their particular vision. But I think the essential difference between the two is that, in the case of early Dinosaur, it was J’s vision for the most part, and he managed to convince both Lou and Murph to buy into it, at least for a time. With Uncle Tupelo, it always seemed like the sides were more evenly represented.

I’ve always thought that one of the most compelling characteristics of Lou’s songwriting is his willingness to put everything right on the table. He doesn’t seem to hold much back (at least in the earlier stuff) and his songs seem to be much more…this isn’t the ideal word, but it’ll have to do…’specific’ and, at times, very honest and poetic. You’d never hear J write lyrics like those in "Homemade," "Brand New Love," or "Soul and Fire." J’s lyrics, on the other hand, have always seemed to be somewhat more vague, open to different interpretations, as if he’s unwilling to reveal too much. I still love ’em, but I think it was best for J and Lou to part ways so that we now have both revered canons of Dinosaur and Sebadoh. Very different, but both brilliant. And as for a reunion, forget about it.

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Kracked Lung

[OriginalPosterLost]

Keith, I agree with you that Lou was an integral part of the band – that is, on "Dinosaur". It seems like soon after that J and Lou were both going their own way. And besides their personal differences (I once read that J said "Lou was a silent guy, then he started talking and I found out I didn’t like him.") that may have been the main reason J kicked Lou out, because Lou was more interested in doing his own thing. And Lou was probably right in that, I don’t mean to take sides here.

Strong analysis, Kracked Lung. I think I would pick "honest" as the first word to describe much of Lou’s work. He often seems to be struggling with the concept of honesty. ("Love is stronger than the truth", "I hesitate to say that you’re a liar, I never tell the truth myself", "Cuz if I honestly react, nothing’s ever gonna work".)
But I do think that J’s songs are also very honest and pure, and often very specific. Think of "Drawerings", for example. "Did you know I heared your voice? When I called to see if you’re around I had no choice." A very clear description of the situation – all we miss is the girl’s name. And still, it seems to me that the feeling it expresses is quite universal, and that’s an important reason for me to love J’s lyrics.

Jasper

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"The chief problem about death, incidentally, is the fear that there may be no afterlife – a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. Also, there is the fear that there is an afterlife but no one will know where it’s being held."

– Woody Allen

[This message has been edited by jasper (edited September 28, 2000).]

[OriginalPosterLost]

I must say I smiled when I saw J on Saturday Night Live this year. When he was waving to the cameras during the end of the show I suddenly remembered an old GQ interview with Lou Barlow I’d read. During the worst part of their relationship Lou used to have this fantasy that Dinosaur Jr. would play on SNL, and that, after their performance, he would kill J with his bass then kill himself, leaving the audience wondering what a horrible person J must have been. Jeers to Lou for being such a child- J made it just fine without you.

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[This message has been edited by rosa (edited October 02, 2000).]

[OriginalPosterLost]

I can see why J said that when Lou started talking he realized he didn’t like Lou that much. Lou sounds like a psycho. "J was mean to me so I want to kill him!" Uh, which is worse, kicking a nut out of your band or killing someone for it, I wonder. No moral dilemna there, at least for a semi-normal person. I can relate anyway, I’ve never had more than a very few friends and it’s because the more I have gotten to know people, usually (but not always) the less I want to be around them. I think I would have dumped Lou also, but probably sooner. J’s music improved vastly when he tore that monkey off his back and started playing his heart. If that last post is accurate, I just lost what little respect I might have harbored for that pitiful crybaby.

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[img]http://www.jamalong.com/fatfarmer.jpg[/img]

[OriginalPosterLost]

Yes, ’tis accurate; I have a good memory. Besides, I would never make up anything that sick. [img]http://www.freakscene.net/ubb/smilies/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

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[OriginalPosterLost]

Hi,

Agree with Rosa 100%, J much better without lb. Saw sebadoh on the Flaming Lips tour last summer, was actually almost looking forward to it. Had heard some of their music, not great but interesting, very disappointed!!!!! Played crappy and all lb did was whine, whine, whine, god I felt like throwing something!!
A

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